2023 The Taunton Press, Inc. All rights reserved. And your case however what youre suggesting sounds like a good idea remove the soil replace with stone dust and then watch C if the flagstones dont get as dirty afterwards. Very glad I could help One stone at a time, no plastic needed. Havent had any issues of stone dust getting into the pool, 3 years later. How can I offer landscape advice if I dont know your climate? I used the granite sand as my leveling layer, too. You may be familiar with it as a stomach medicine. Well yes, if a flagstone patio is pitched properly then water will flow over the flagstones and into a drain. is this a bad practice? When gravel shifts, it can expose the weed cloth underneath, letting weeds overtake the edges of your gravel walkway or driveway. Are you stuck having someone put more in? Devin, You are absolutely the best source of info concerning flagstone installation. I plan to do a flagstone patio. Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox. Technisoil.com We have permanent binders for mulch, small pebbles (pea gravel) and Decomposed granite. Sand? Kristi. Wow, thats frustrating. Then I would like to avoid more polymeric sand, and use what you have described instead. I have put 2"x4" around the border of the exercise yard to keep the gravel from migrating out of the enclosure. We had flagstones placed in our outdoor shower about 5 years ago. Well, its fairly easy, but you have to becarefulthe sand is mixed with a binder. The stones are fairly thick, 2-3thanks. So I prefer the powdery-dry methodif Im working solo, usually. SawStop's Portable Tablesaw is Bigger and Better Than Before, Podcast 530: PRO TALK With Architecture Student Phillip Schladweiler, Podcast 529: Cold Floors, Galvanic Corrosion, and Siding Over Board Sheathing. Do you have any photos of the little piles? Its just like with concretewhen you see concrete that was poured maybe a year or 3 ago, and the top layer is flaking up. Filled with stone dust and in order to keep the gaps looking regular we only had to re-cut a few of them to correct the factories imperfect cutting. Year and years later, no problembut then I have seen hardscapes built by other contractors, that used white gravel for the foundationand seen jobs like that fail. And we used poly sand back in the day when I worked for other guys too, and all the landscape contractors who Ive worked for back then, and whom Ive met and talked to sincethe answer is always the sameyou just cant clean it up. Read the directions, follow precautions (gloves, mask, glasses). Are there any key steps Im missing? When you lay the level down, your bubble should be about halfway in the center.and you do not want much space beneath the level anyway.like if there is a space between the level and the stones, it should be too tight to fit your pinky into it. I am working on installing a small flagstone walkway with decomposed granite base. Compare. 1. Based on the photos, it seems they didnt remove all the mortar, more a partial job? We thought of ripping the whole thing out and putting stamped concrete because we hate the gaps so much (weeds, ants, etc). I just put down some pea gravel around my fire pit area and now anytime someone walks on it the gravel gets into the mulch and all over. Hate it? Are there certain colors light or dark? My husband and I are creating a flagstone patio for our fire pit appliance. Calcium chloride or other salt substitute should be fine, but salt will deteriorate mortar. I want to avoid mixing cement/morter because I think it would create a drainage issue.Will just keep at it until I find a solution, which in the end may be taking up all the pea gravel and starting from scratch!Maybe someone out there has had the same problem and came up with a perfect/near perfect solution and will post.Murphy. Properly installed, rain washing the decomposed granite out from in between the flagstones should not be a problem. I have patio pavers with gravel between pavers instead of polymeric sand. If it were me, Id repair the existing patio with mortarand then probably do the additional 10 dry laid. It is apparently about 12 yrs old. But sand wont help and if you do not want to do it proper to begin withthen what you already have is probably fine. A friend recommended polymeric stone dust so I did a search. So..what good shall it do me, if this unfortunately rigid and stable joint is natural, not synthetic? Get complete site access to expert advice, how-to videos, Code Check, and more, plus the print magazine. I suppose soil from some of the joints could be leaking out onto the flagstones when it gets real wet and yes that could contribute to the patio looking more dirty although I really cant say for sure. We are a team of passionate homeowners, home improvement pros, and DIY enthusiasts who enjoy sharing home improvement, housekeeping, decorating, and more with other homeowners! Hello Devin, We found your article a little too late. And I also offer DIY phone consultations, in case my articles are not enough to help you with your flagstone questions. We have worked with a company in Western PA called Harsco Minerals which has a product called Mineral CSA (formerly known as REC MIX) which we have used as a pond liner for treating mine drainage. The other thing to watch for, as far as separation between your mortar joint and the edge of your flagstoneis getting everything clean. We surrounded the design with the rest of the flagstones in a circle (resulting in a centre medallion type of look) and then they are laid randomly to the outer edge of the patio in a normal fashion. Good question. Will take longer to install, but can be made to look real nice. Please and thank you, Freddi. Half inch, quarter inch, eighth an inchany of those would workso long as they have fines3/8 is what I usually use, but I work around the country, and sizes/names vary slightly yet every place Ive been wcarries something like this. The gravel in some places is as much as 4" thick, so removing it is really the last thing I want to do. which probably dates to when the house was built(1968). Wide flagstone joints are okay.if you plan on planting say irish moss or clover or something. Id really have to see what you are working with, what the flagstone looks likeand then it would be a matter of looking into what is available in your area. Thoughts on what we could use? Is it deep enough? First, lay a foundation of compacted stone aggregate, then lay individual flagstones using screenings as the leveling agent. Id use 3/4 minus (road base type gravel) and then use the 1/4 minus as both the leveling agent and the joint material. Its kind of silly but often people have screenings/breeze/DG all over their flagstones for the simple reason that they insisted on filling the joints in between the stones all the way to the tippy top. But on a dirt foundation, to set flagstones in a bed of cement based mortar, just doesnt make sense, for use with flagstone. Great information and helpful blog! | Paver Base Panel vs. Gravel For Patio Base | Patio Ideas On A Budget. (P.S. Im so glad I found your webpage. I was planning on Breeze but hear it will be tracked into the house and wash away. I wish I had read the forum BEFORE listening to the landscaper. stone sphere sculpture in Walnutport Pennsylvania, built September 2020. As mentioned in the article right above..I go with screenings. White screenings are made from limestoneand crushed limestone has a bad name, in the hardscaping industry, because it tends to hold water. The tile company probably makes a rubber underlayment that youll want to lay on top of the 1/4 minus. Thanks for your help, George. Maybe 6 yardS of 1/4 minus (decomposed granite is more expensive, just ask for 1/4 minus, or pathway fines). Science demands this of me. Am looking for the classic very light grey or whitewash joint color. I read your article, thanks. Alas, Ive been a bit busy with tentacles and planetoids, and also with helping DIY enthusiasts with their own projects. Thank you for your thoughts and guidance! You simply sweep the material into the flagstone (or other paver) joints, lightly hose down, then it solidifies. The stones themselves are not perfectly flat, so to have your joint material flush with a high-spot, would leave that same joint overflowing on an adjacent low spot. The stone dust would just be compacted by wetting and drying? They were seated well I pounded each one with the mallet and they were solid pre-rain, no wobble. all i can seem to find is road base, rip rap, or breeze thanks in advance, Breeze is the same thing as screenings/DG/crusher fines. Fill the joints with stone dust/aka screenings, decomposed granite, ectthe same stuff you should use to level the stones out with. My neighbors approve. Free Store Pickup Today. It became the neighborhood cat litter box yuck! Dry laid is hugely my preference, in any place with a freeze-thaw cycle. This is a torch that is used to weld and cut steela blow torch. that is the stone dust that you refer to, pea gravel or something else as a filler in cracks that wide? Brett in Millersville,PA. I think Ill try the screening stuff. !Thanks in advanceMurphy. Have returned to this post many times. This site is a great service. One of those might be ochre stone. Therefore I very carefully applied the poly sand directly into the joints using a grout bag. They get slippery. Thank you for the prompt response. He hosed and tamped the joints a couple of times, and Ive hosed them a couple more times since. Im not a big fan of sealing flagstone or color enhancers. It commonly ranges from 0.63 to 1.26" in diameter and is commonly sold by the ton or truck-load. Anything with d-limonene. Metal is more durable, but no matter what border you choose, it should be at least 1/2 inch above the ground outside the perimeter. My husband who is a builder always goes to the product, which i always talk him out of, but cement is one that I cant seem to stop him from. Thanks for any advice on this. Heres a patio, where for most of it, I set the flagstones maybe an inch to an inch and a half apartso thats already wider than usual, for mebut then, for the section of patio just past the deck and surrounding the pond, we set the flagstones more like 2 inches apart. What to put between flagstone jointspolymeric sand or stone dust? Theres other ways to deal with weeds, but this article is getting long. Lots sell stone dust which is grey. Are the stones too small, I mean, maybe hes thinking to glue the stones down with the cement? Have you seen this used with travertine tile in an outdoor pool deck in Florida? Suggestions for adding on? Solutionfit tighter and fill with larger sized material. Since the stones fit back nicely into place, only the seal between the mortar and the stone has brokenI recommend using pl loctite premium: https://amzn.to/3z9FWTi They sell it at depot and lowes, in the caulk isle. Thanks! and do you ask for just that (Stone dust or screenings)? Were halfway through a DIY of flagstone on the side of our driveway. Maybe a dry concrete mix without the rocks in it? Thats the basic formula. You could a) hire a professional. Then, Id fill the joints in with stone dust.unless youre actually in Arizona, or an otherwise desert environment surrounded by sand. I was wondering I have put all my random flagstone down on the screening. YES, its supposed to be fun and tiringyoure doing it right! I think that any crushed stone with a good variety of sizes would work. We have a large sandstone flag patio, installed in 2011 by a company that used poly sand in the joints. Should I seal the granite? Luckily, there are many ways you can stabilize pea gravel on walkways and driveways. Hi I have dog kennel for my dog and I was wondering .Should I use pea gravel or cement I wont something easy to clean. Maybe some other kind of inexpensive metal grating would also work. Offering consultation services has really made things easier on meI used to get emails, phone calls and even text messages from random people looking for free advice. Quikrete Assorted All-Purpose Gravel 50 lb. Thank you for any comments that you can provide. Screed this gravel, nice and smooth, using a 4 long wooden level. My wife and I are interested in a new brown wave patio. Hi Devin, Thanks for the amazing article. Wanted advice for DIY backyard basketball court of size 42 feet wide and 28 feet long. didn't think far enough on this one. DIY flagstone advice from a guy at Lowessounds dangerous. Pressing the Escape (ESC) button will close the modal and bring you back to where you were on the page. Their concrete was too wet and/or they overworked it, troweled it too much and brought too much water to the surface. We just moved in a year ago. Hope that helps and I wish you good luck! But what do you do if you need to fix cracking polymeric sand? Its just too big. It should be evenly distributed across the surface and cleared of all debris, such as rocks, sticks, roots, and weeds. I then took a blower and carefully blew away the very small amount of dust that accumulated on the open surface of the flagstone as a result of the vibrating process. Polymeric sand is no good. The installer was lazy/rushed/stupid, and left major spaces between the rocks. I think you use what you have available. 1. Sweeping dg into the joints again, because some voids will have appeared after the first hose down, then hosing down again. (even non-shrinking exterior grout). I have heard many hardscapers claim that its impossible to remove the polymeric sand haze. Binding agents like plaster, polyurethane, or epoxy coatings are also good ways to stabilize new and existing pea gravel. Ditto what had been said here about using pea gravel. what do you think? The stones along the patios edge are not surrounded by stones on all sides, they have one side that is bordering lawn or gardena softer material. Take a sprinkler and wet it down , it will tighten it up , still be looser stones on top. Repoint with Masons mortargrout is for tile work, indoors. btw, the photo you emailed me looks GREAT. Also, how could you please help me with All the steps and tools i need to take for this DIY basketball court. I hope that helps. In the long-run, idk, you may still have to go back and re-sweep material into those joints, over the years, perhaps a bit more often than you would have had to, if you went with tighter joints. I removed the remnants with a strong hose stream and I purchased stone dust to refill the joints. Will stone dust/decomposed granite work in both/either area? Ochre stone is actually a byproduct of ochre mining, it's kind of like brown crusher run. Then allow it to dry for another 24 hours. And you were obviously very meticulous too. If you set your flagstones upon a gravel foundation/on a bed of sand or stone dustthen fill your joints with stone dust. Hello, I apologize if this has already been answered. I would like to use something called a tumbled Colorado Red Stepper which is relatively small compared to other stones. After completing the digging of holes for the plants that I added, I topped the beds off with mulch and bark chips. And dont use salt either. I cant find any advice on-line about how to apply the stone dust. I think I read up above that one shouldnt have to pressure wash flagstone patios very often I think you mentioned once every 10 years. For example, something like this: https://www.glengery.com/mortar or maybe something from Sika? I love the back and forth in the comments section. Portland cement should not be used. As far as the gravel goes, crusher run is the stuff. Unfortunately, job is small and nothing artistic about it. About ground cover for in between your stones.theres a few good options out there, like Irish moss (not really a moss) and thyme and others. Wondering if you might have a quick second to let me know your thoughts on a recent dilemma. Youve also referred to it as crusher dust. I was excited by the product at first.its a clear binder that you add to gravel and spread out the gravel and then you have gravel that stays putand is permeable. I wonder if mixing the top layer of pebbles with stone dust might not stabilize your pea gravel somewhat, kind of like crusher run?. I'd likely just go for concrete after this fiasco. I appreciate the advice. One web site even suggests a 1/3 dry portland cement/breeze mix, to then be gently soaked with water that would harden up. And be sure to not overfill your jointsthe stone dust/DG should be a bit shy of the tops of your flagstones. Even if you are using a more uniform paver, the gravel foundation may not compact 100 percent perfectly. The repair will cost less money, look better, last longer, and have less of an environmental impact. But, you came to me with a need and Id rather give you a complete answer. Also avoid non-porous rocks like pea gravel, river rocks, fish rocks, sand, glass marbles, etc. Hi Devin, Ive loved to play with rocks and recently did some work at our camp on Moosehead Lake (ME). Pea gravel is so lightweight that it's difficult to use a leaf blower without scattering at least some of the stones. It will crack. To be fair Ive seen exceptions! I just used stone dust (screenings) as a leveler and in between flagstones. Try https://www.envirobond.com/professional/envirosand/ Organic binding material. Also, its toxic stuff were talking. Montana and Pennsylvania both have serious winters, that cause soils to heave and settle. Check it againrepeat until its wobble-free. Would appreciate your advice. Plus, Ill answer short and sweet questions here on my blog, of course. Take it dry and rake it in with the pea gravel , you dont want too much cement sitting on top . We need to replace the joints and extend the patio 10 feet. Surrounded by retaining wallsso the patio is below grade, and a drain of some type is necessary. Your Thoughts are? What do you recommend for replacing the grout? Set aside ample time for the project, haste makes waste. Fact is that you simply can not use polymeric sand as a replacement for taking your time and doing the job right. And reallymaybe make the drainage saw-cut, then fill in a couple inches with road base type gravel. Google patio floor drain choose a decent looking one, read their instructions.Im available for consultations if you wish for individualized guidance on this project. How much does polymeric sand cost? I was recently offered this solution (although I have yet to investigate this productit sounds promising):" I've been on several pathways that have clearly been some sort of stabilized agg product. Also, it is unnecessary. The article goes into more detail. Felicity, I am not sure what ochre stone is but I went to a "stone retailer" and explained the problem. Devin, Before my enlightenment my aha! I intend to lay one 12 x 5 long 2 inch thick tread on top of the cinder block. What do you think? While drying occurs, do not allow anyone to step on the pea gravel. I noticed almost the same effect/thing on the dirt in the garden. Please consider it for a minute. The article above addresses flagstone joints in a dry laid applicationwith a gravel foundation. Where do you buy the screenings? Not a big fan of waterproofing goop being sprayed into stone screenings either. Anyone with real life experience using it? See that off-white material between the flagstones? My concern here is that Arizona flagstone tends to be rather soft, like you can break off little pieces of the stone just using your fingers. Well, if the foundation and pitch all seem decent, then Id simply suggest removing the gator dust and replacing with stone dust. they were sagging, and needed to be re-done, so why not try to re-purpose them into a patio for our growing family. I love the look of pea gravel, but it sure doesn't handle traffic well. I would not recommend sand for in between flagstone joints. First, you will measure the area and check you have the correct amount of binding solution. Were using paving sand as the base. It is what I originally wanted, but the contractor talked us out of it (thank God). The screenings will generally stay put, once theyve been swept into place and hosed down real well. Irish moss, creeping thymeidk, what plant would be best for your local conditions. This, I believe, answers your need for a walkway where most of the gravel stays in place, yet is still permeable. The cobblestones..1 inch gap sounds large. This includes gator dust and any other type or brand of polysand. This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google. * This works better with tight joints. It does shift when the dogs play or work here. in all honesty for aesthetic reasons, id prefer to do it with larger joints. Hi Devin. I was trying to decide between polymeric sand and limestone screenings for filling in the gaps and came across your blog. A soupy mortar is a weak mortar. Thanks for your colorful commentary and your insight (with years and years of experience). Hi Devin, greetings from colorado. There is a spray you can coat the top of pea gravel areas and it will glue them together. Were actually fixing a poorly done patio for a friend. these fines, when dampened, actually do bind up with the larger chips, becoming semi-solid. All the local supply places are pushing the polymeric sand (gator dust) but the 2 contractors I am considering dont seem to know much about using it. My solution (short of removing it) was to dig the pea gravel into the soil by about 1 spade deep. Hi Devin Thanks for all your comments. Be sure to hose off and dont let muriatic acid sit long, as it can deteriorate the joint materialmuriatic acid eats cement. I prefer smaller joints. Paver set works well. Not sure DG would drain properly with the cement base. All that space that was filled with water is now air, so its a weak concrete. Hello, could you please post a few close up pictures of the stone screenings that you use so we can try to match our locally available products as closely as possible. Such joints will fail within a few years. Other solutions, please? Plus, get an extra 20% off with code GIFT20, Fine Homebuilding Issue #313 Online Highlights, The Fine Homebuilding Interview: James Metoyer, 10 Steps to Install Crown Molding on Cabinets, Choosing the Right Construction Tape for the Job, Expert insights on techniques and principles. I presume stone dust is finer than crushed granite, yes? Thank you and good luck . work the soil to a depth of approximately 5 to 6 inches, How To Keep Gravel In Place In A Driveway. The industry standard for flagstone installation these days, is still basically to use the methods, tools and materials used in concrete paver installation and adapt them to natural flagstone. Remove the mortar with an angle grinder and chisel/large flatheat screwdriver. I have a dry laid flagstone patio in the backyard, and am exploring some joint filler options. If your stone is on a concrete base, then you want to repair it with mortar, not stone dust. Material cost is more or less of no importance so if decomposed granite would work better or look better than other stone dust I would use it. Installing loose pea gravel is relatively simple compared to other hardscaping materials. The only times that Ive seen people having trouble keeping stone dust/decomposed granite in their flagstone joints, the flagstone joints were too wide. Do you recommend using cement/sand mortar combination or to go with stone dust. https://www.envirobond.com/professional/envirosand/, https://www.landscapeandgarden.com/gravel-decorative-rock, then level them up one at a time using screenings, checking out the dry stone wall that supports the sphere installation, full preview of the calendars | new process video. I was told to lay my flag stone like a puzzle with a 3/4 in space in between, and use a mallet to get the flagstones to be level with one an other. When Im done, the joint material will be about a quarter inch from the tops of the stones. Wanted to check with you the cheapest way to do it under 2K if possible? Ixnay on the oplypay urethane-ay and-say,okay? This is in New Jersey by the way. In reality, nothing is impossible. Quikrete Gray Sand/Topping Mix 60 lb. Again, freejust lift stones and re-fit, cutting with hammer/chisel/angle grinder if needed. Im trying to keep my foundation dry on north side of home. After reading your article, Im confused.. Is polymeric dust the same thing as screening? This can wreck the flat surface you are making. Thank you for bringing that updecomposed granite is yet another name for stone dust. Stays in place. Do you have any thought on how to make the surface more solid so particles do not get blown or washed out? Water it in. You may have to wait a few months since he is sought after like that, but he, does travel to new jersey. Just did a repair where the sand in-between and under the flagstones was undermined by and taken over by ants. I have a flagstone walkway with the stone separated by 3-4 inches (anything closer would be considered an impervious surface and restricted by zoning due to coverage restrictions so nothing to be done about that). Do you have pea gravel? https://images.homedepot-static.com/productImages/8f8e41ef-21f0-4fba-beda-fcb652335ff0/svn/quikrete-masonry-mortar-mix-a003a-64_1000.jpg. By dirt, you must mean soil. Hi, love the blog, just stumbled into it and you have a great skill at explaining things. I only need a small quantity/bag? If it deteriorates, it can always be supplemented with the traditional fine sand to insure the strength and stability of the pavement. Now in the above drawing, on the left is 3/4 to 1 clean gravel. Last year, I installed the landscape fieldstone for a courtyard but after an injury, had to stop before completing. Thanks in advance. (Note: I am not a professional, but love to DYI landscape). Im glad we didnt go with polymeric sand! There are some joints approaching 1 inch. Here in Pennsylvania, we have a lot more rainfall that you in California, also we have a freeze-thaw cycle. We decided on pea gravel as a less cost interim before we could afford brick or slate for our back patio area. Next, snap the pavers into place over the top of the gravel and fill the empty cells with more pea gravel. Here is a video demonstration of how i cut flagstone using a rock hammer: Be sure to comment on the video amd let me know how the technique works for you. Use a leaf blower on a low setting to remove small bits of screenings that havent settled all the way in yet. However, applying these types of products can reduce the permeability of pea gravel. Crushed gravel can range in different sizes too and is often used for driveways, paths, and decorative purposes. Stone dust, for the win. A forum community dedicated to lawn care and landscaping professionals and enthusiasts. . You may get away with 2 or 4 inch jointsbut it will work better with stones fit more tightly than that. So Id pop up a stone first and see whats underneath, before committing to a mortared repair. The cement coats the peagravel and gatehrs at the contact points. Stone dust is the way to go for most professionally installed flagstone patios. The gravel helps toughen up the dog's pads without damaging them. Any idea where we could look for some advice? Well obviously thats absurd. Wish I could hire you to redo my patio in New Mexico! The best way to predict your future is to create it. I live in Seattle, and Im installing a flagstone pathway in my lawn. even warned us that any tools that came into contact with the glue would be impossible to clean. I would look under the sink and see if you have any orange based cleaning products. There were two erosion spots that created 4 low spots. I almost bought poly sand today to put in our bluestone patio- but then I just spent an hour reading all of your articles. Have you had any luck, or heard of any way to do this? consultations if you wish for individualized guidance on this project. I hope not. Incredible. You will have to reapply at some point. What Is The Least Expensive Patio Material. Theyll sell it in the masonry section at depot/lowes. Thank you. Mr. Devin, I have a concrete sidewalk that meanders down to a dock by the lake. If you want individual advice beyond that, I also offer phone consultations! No polymeric sand. This project will be my first. Any idea how to remove the haze from the pavers? in the cracks thinking the soil and plants will help hold the stones in place. But, it depends on the scene, and on your preferences.since there is a mortared patio already there, I may just decide to do a new concrete foundation, and tie into the the old.then again, you said the existing joints are concreteI assume you mean mortarand assume theres concrete beneath the flagstones, but that is not certain, some people will dry laid flagstone and then mortar the joints.
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