No one in the pages of Bible ever said that all Scripture is EQUAL. As has been said multiple times above, it is fairly common for a pupil to break off from his teachers opinion. He states not only is he a Pharisee, but where he studied and what tribe he is from. Menu. Paul was so entrenched in corrupted rabbinics (MAASE HATORAH ) that it clouded the vision of Messiah until Damscucs road. We should not follow the jesus of Paul the Pharisee or Muhammad or any other man, who had their own ideas of who jesus was and what He did. Paul would say his success came from the power of the Gospel and the Holy Spirit. He wrote the book on NT theology, and developed a missionary strategy that evangelized the western Roman empireso maybe three or four degrees at least. We know that as a young man Paul studied under the tutelage of Rabbi Gamaliel in Tarsus, who provided him with an expert knowledge of the Hebrew Scriptures ( Acts 22:3 ). Jesus calls us to Himself When The Show begins Were infants so He humors us Its Rocky and His Friends https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65t-OzhlmvE. How can we account for this violent reaction in a man trained by Gamaliel? You said that your QUOTE Quran is incorruptible. Thats like many Christians saying the Bible is inerrant. Muhammad is to Muslims as Paul is to most Christians as Mary is to most Catholics an idol that they worship, practically speaking. Have you even stepped inside shul? Ibn Taymiyya is the first I know of who said it in writing but obviously it was known as no Hadith mentioned Paul or a 13th Apostle, did name the 12. If the Hillel tradition did not offer plasticity enough to justify Pauls missions against Christians, is it possible that Paul felt that he stayed basically faithful to Gamaliel/Hillels school and to mercy because the predominant number (majority of cases) of Pauls concrete cases against Christians did not require threats of death (i.e., how many Christians caved in?). From your article clearly shows you dont even understand the basic concepts of Judaism nor what those schools taught. If we didnt also have the clear records in Mark and Luke, it would be a fairly logical assumption that Jesus sent them out right away, but it would still be just an assumption. Any help is much appreciated, in advance! He left James as Nassi of his Sanhedrin, who is a Pharisee. St. Gamaliel, also Gamaliel the Elder or or Rabbi Gamaliel I (Hebrew: ; Greek: ) was a Pharisee who was a leading authority in the Sanhedrin, a doctor of the Law (Acts 5:34-40), and the teacher of St Paul (Acts 22:3). If one lies and is decieved that it somehow abounds to Gods glory, that lying isnt a sin ESPECIALLY where God is concerned, what WONT they lie about? He uses these references quite often throughout many of his books in the NT. So if our priorities are The Great Commission and the Great Commandment, we have our priorities upside down and confused, and we are not listening to the voice of Jesus. First off reading the first paragraph, his human teachers and influences matter almost as much as guidance by the Holy Spirit did. Not 1 as in 3 in 1. Therefore, what Saul was taught was not based off of Gods truth. Being in his mid-range teens allows for plenty of time for Pauls family to teach him the strict conservative Jewish ways that he often brings up. This is a matter of defining ones terms. Im horrified that youre taking Jewish writings and making crazy stories out of them. There is absolutely no Christianity in the book of Acts. And Paul only said it here, one time, in the middle of a personal letter. Its called Islam and it is True Religion and the fastest growing religion on earth because people are realizing that Christianity is built on a foundation of lies and the religion of the Nazarenes and Ebionites is preserved in Islam. It isnt a question of mens opinions about what Paul really meant or what Paul must have known or what Paul was actually referring to here or what Paul was clearly implying or what we must conclude that Paul was assuming, etc. There is no greater lie than to lie about God. And one throne for that other guy named Peter. Now Ive got 3 slots open. But Jesus said, do not take the best seats (Luke 14:7-11), and to be like a child (Luke 18:15-17). Per Matthew he told his followers to follow the teachings of the Pharisee. 2. Mainstream Judaism resistance to Paul isnt a sign of absolute proof that he wasnt a student of Hillel. This is what happens when you dont study near eastern culture and context before reading scripture. Bibliography: Bruce Chilton, Rabbi Jesus 28-47; Gamaliel in ABD 2:904. Wrong. To be more like Jesus is what some strive except for me Ive already arrived Im the perfect model since the road to Damascus What were Pauls sins? Only 3 of these men wrote Scripture in the Bible Matthew, John and Peter. 2 : any of numerous moths whose gregarious larvae spin communal nests usually in trees. The irony is what youre doing is exactly what Paul said NOT to do. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength. The second is this: Love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than THESE. [Mark 12:28-31, Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18], #2 an expert in the law, tested him [Jesus] with this question: Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?, Jesus replied: Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. Neither Paul, nor James, nor Luke were with Jesus and the Apostles the whole time, so they were not qualified to be a witness with the Apostles of Jesus resurrection, which is what it means to be an Apostle. Just open the Gospels, especially Mathew, which has you in mind, and listen to the voice of Yeshua. For example, Gi. The rabbi Gamaliel was a Pharisee in the tradition of the great Hillel. According to Jesus, which Commandment is the Most Important? I keep wondering how far N.T. There were no other New Testament books, and the Hebrew Scriptures were the Old Testament which was irrelevant, according to the heretic Marcion.) The notion was given classic expression only a little more than a century ago by the biblical scholar John William Burgon. We are painters, and we paint. But the testimonies of the era indicate he would have become a ward and trainee of Gamaliel in the age range of 10-14. It seems that Pauls upbringing and learning under Gamaliel would have to play some role in the way that he thought, taught, and formed his theology. Good to see the parrot-heads well represented here. There is also a fair bit of controversy about Paul. I. Then again youre the one creating a construct that Paul was Shammai. He just doesnt suddenly become submission to government and punishment, or in his words a prisoner of Jesus Christ. He is, at least, in some small way returning to what he could have been taught by Gamaliel. By claiming to have been under the teaching of this particular rabbi, Paul is claiming to have been educated in a most impressive way. A Nazarite vow entail a MANTADORY sacrifice to the temple. Paul undermined Apollos and heretically claimed I became your father. I do not think that after conversion he started reading manuals of style in order to communicate better with Gentiles, he already was well aware of these styles because the were pervasive in the culture. Happy Pentecost 2017 All praise be to Jesus. I have said I will ignore you since you are not interested in dialogue. Are the lines differentiating Gamaliel/Hillel from Shammaite Pharisees sufficiently filled out by robust bodies of exhaustive casuistry? I dont know of a single church that simply teaches the Bible simply and preaches the whole counsel of God, including Pauls sins and mistakes. Match. This piece (above) is well done. Im horrified that youre taking Jewish writings and making crazy stories out of them.. In Acts 5:34 he appears as an advocate of the nascent congregation of Jesus' disciples in Jerusalem and is called "a Pharisee, a teacher of the Law, held in honor by all the people.". Who was Gamaliel in the Bible? This status gave him special privileges, and in some cases saved him from abuse (Acts 22:25-29). take Paul leaving his honor spot of next chief of the Sanhedrin (being Gamaliel's student). Not the voice of the accuser, Boss Paul the Pharisee, Telling the redeemed people of God About what they used to be. You can read Peters advice for yourself- then open your Bible to Matthew, John, Revelation, and Mark, and listen to Jesus for yourself! I appreciate your many responses to this thread.as I wrote this response you have added a few more! You seem to parrot some of his words in your replies. Why is it so hard to give a straight answer to this simple question? Did paul study under gamaliel? Their cult leader is their hero he is always right, could never be wrong about anything specific, and he must be obeyed in all things and never questioned. According to Polhill there were many individual groups in First century Judaism before the war of 66-70 The different groups had much in common But each had its own combination of characteristics (Polhill 28). teresa marina tabucchi; antonia reininghaus daughter; mountain view ar tornado 1996; safari photography settings; catfish bite force; professional executor services What is the meaning of Tentmaker? So youd rather channel Constantine, anti semetic church fathers and bad book from amazon from authors who know absolutely nothing about Judaism or what they are even reading. Needless to say, many still revere Philomena and Christopher as saints. Acts 22:3. And most Evangelical pastors who read the Bible spend most of their time listening to the voice of Paul, so they become like Paul. But I digress, James, we had a good run. I agree, It does make sense a Pharisee would be expected to be married, though. Lets see. "Paul claims to have been educated by Gamaliel, one of the premier teachers of the Law in the first century. Historically, it's believed to be 34 AD, give or take a year. For that, we have to go to extra-biblical sources. When we look at Pauls teachings and testimony about himself, (in his letters that make up 1/3 of the New Testament,) we should NOT immediately ask ourselves; what did Paul say, what did Paul mean, and how does this apply to my life? The fundamental question is NOT what was in the mind of Paul?, Before any of that, the FIRST question to ask is; does Paul agree with Jesus, who came to fulfill the Law and the Prophets?, Paul contradicted himself, and his teachings and testimony about himself dont harmonize with the teachings of Jesus (or with Lukes record of his life.) I interpret 6 months of silence to mean: even if no one here has the courage to agree with me publicly, no one in the world can open a Bible and prove me wrong from the Bible text on these specific points Ive raised here. Terms in this set (31) Where was Paul born? we only see him make use of those things POST conversion, this is true enough, but we do not really have a very large database of material to assess Pauls Hellenistic worldview prior to his conversion. The cornerstone of Judaism then and now is that although it has guidelines it also leaves rooms for free thought. No, im based in Missouri. The character and position of his father. The false teaching about one rule is the false teaching of the Pharisees of Pauls day, and Paul the Pharisee was pushing this false teaching. On page 38 Polhil writes, Paul certainly showed more the attitude of the zealots than of Gamaliel. Polhil also mentions in Phillipians 3:5-6, Paul refers to his persecuting in close connection with his zeal for the law. Polhil then mentions that a modern Zionist would have a yearning for the independence of the nation and the restoration of the glory of the temple by the Messiah. After reading our sections it seems to me that although Paul studied under Gamaliel, his actions resembled more closely to the Shammaite party. So Law, Prophets, scripture is what it is divided into. A generation before Christ there were two great rabbis, Hillel and Shammai. The people who Paul persecuted were Diaspora Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah and claimed that God raised Jesus from the dead. How can we account for this violent reaction in a man trained by Gamaliel?, As a devout young Jewish man who was taught by quite a peaceful, que sera sera, member of the Sanhedrin, it is somewhat surprising that Paul (Saul at the time) would be one to persecute Jewish Christians so vehemently. In Galatians 1:21, Paul wrote, "I went into the regions of Syria and Cilicia .". This applies to the Pharisee sect. His dissertation was published as Jesus the Bridegroom by Pickwick Books in 2012. Jesus never said right is wrong, He never said wrong is right. As for burying Stephen, even if Gamaliel was not a Christian he would have been motivated to care for the dead, as demonstrated in Tobit. This was where the institution derived its name, gymnos being the Greek word for naked. For Jews, nakedness was religiously offensive (11). By Paul being Jewish and involved in the gymnasium, he was going against the norm. You do not know what my background or what ive read. The New Testament was not written nor codified till well after both Yeshua and Shaul were gone. After Pauls conversion, his passion seems to push him to even greater lengths as he then proclaims the very Jesus he had persecuted! The underlying unspoken assumption is that The Bible (66 Books) was given to us by God as one book and its all equal in level of authority, priority, and importance. If Saul is in fact a disciple of Gamaliel, then he seems to have a considerably different opinion on how to handle the apostolic witness when we meet him in Acts 9. The Orthodox Muslim view of the Koran as self-evidently the Word of God, perfect and inimitable in message, language, style, and form, is strikingly similar to the fundamentalist Christian notion of the Bibles inerrancy and verbal inspiration that is still common in many places today. Tarsus of Cilicia. This has already been proven many times over that James the Just was a Nasi, the Nazarites had a Sanhedrin, and per Euseibus the first bishops of the church were Hebrews who taught Torah along with the teachings of Yeshua and you didnt have a gentile bishop until Mark. There is absolutely no Christianity in the book of Acts.. It sounds so right, so intelligent, so professional, so godly.. but it is fundamentally flawed. it seems like Gamaliels statement would be a good point to make in sharing the gospel message with people of the Jewish faith. Or is it possible that Paul privately harbored more overall agreement with Gamaliel/Hillel than with Shammaite Pharisees, and that Paul felt himself to be a lone dissenter in rare cases (Christians) against his former masters legal hermeneutics of mercy? This message was not the Gospel. Paul, Silas, and Timothy desired to enter Asia to spread the gospel there, but the Holy Spirit prevented them. Yet hes from the school of Shammi? Gymnasiums were built for these people who participated in game in which they engaged in sports naked. Several people objected that it does not really matter who Pauls human teachers were, after his conversion experience he was taught by the Holy Spirit. The Astounding Conversion of Paul He may have had Greek rhetoric and oration skills, but not at the top level (or at least he says he is not much of a speaker). There are many of us Red Letter Christians out here in evangelical land. While he agrees with Gamaliel, Paul wants to protect that which he loves. Pharisee ruled that executions created a bloody Sanhedrin and if you had more than one a year, it was considered a bloody Sanhedrin. For years now America has been stuck in a seemingly endless, unwinnable guerilla war in an Asian nation that borders China. Gamaliel was a Pharisee and a grandson of the famous Rabbi Hillel. The teachings he received included "the perfect manner of the law of the fathers" (Acts 22:3). The majority of the rest of the book of Acts and the New Testament tells much about Paul's effective ministry as he served the Lord. This is exactly what I am talking about, I have regularly posted articles on this blog saying the earliest Christians were Jewish and I often say in classes (and I am sure I have said it someplace here) that the earliest Christian theology (either Jesus or Paul) was quite similar to the Pharisees. 3) the apostle Paul prides himself on having sat at the feet of Gamaliel. In regards to Gamaliel, based off of Acts 5:35-40, he seemed to be a wise teacher. [erase erase erase], Of course, you both are specifically mentioned in Acts 6:2. How can I make them understand that they should deal with Paul Worship the same way that I deal with smoking weed? That is incorrect. [Acts 19:21 22:21] . Wright (and others) point out that Gamaliel II seems more, er, pacifist Acts, while Paul seems to want to zealously pursue those who are accusing the High Priest of killing an innocent man. in a meticulous, more comprehensive way. This is more accurate, important, and authoritative than personal letters written by Paul the Pharisee, who never knew Jesus personally, had no part in His ministry, and had no eyewitness testimony. (Two other saint also removed at that timer were St. Philomena and St. Christopher. Completely different mindset in Jerusalem which forbade such things. How about you? Ill have to change the names on these 12 chalkboards hundreds of times in the next couple of millennia. Eryk, have you ever heard of dual citizenship? But, Once an idea has been accepted by your subconscious, it remains there and it governs your behavior until it is replaced or changed. [ as a pastor named Bishop Dale C. Bronner observed in one of his sermons]. I want to bring my hippie friends to church- but how to I explain to them that its taboo to mention Pauls sins and doctrinal errors in church? Pauls athletic references are too pervasive in his letters for him to have shared the antipathy that some Jews felt toward the games. Right the man has been in Israel for over 20 years and studied in a Yeshiva and created a University be he knows nothing about mainstream Judaism Yet you cant read a sentence of Hebrew to save your life. My problem is with your assumption that just because Paul differs from Gamaliel makes him a radical Shammaite Pharisee. Yes, this subject can get indepth, but I think it is better myself to keep it simple, and what we can know, from Scripture itself. When Paul was arrested, he told the people and the authorities, "I am a Jew, born in Tarsus in Cilicia, but brought up in this city, educated at the feet of Gamaliel according to the strict manner of the law of our fathers, being zealous for God as all of you are this day" (Acts 22:3). Hes actually stating his lineage and why he should have the floor to speak. Helpful. This is your only warning before being banned for incivility. No, I DONT want Paul to act like a Pope controlling all aspects of the church from a distance yet reading Pauls 2 letters to the church, it is clear to me this is exactly what he was doing. Yeshua himself even quotes these writings directly. Not to mention I highly doubt you have a Phd in any area of academia or even known any grasp of Hebrew or Greek. What else do we know about him? Let every matter be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses, as it says in the Law ! unless some else takes credit for writing these words. With respect to Hellenism, Hillel was more open to Hellenism than Shammai and was therefore more open to cooperation with the Romans. But let us not confuse the issue with facts. This is a good point, although I am not sure that the tradition is totally reliable. If the LORD Yahweh, and His Son Yeshua the Jewish Messiah is God, follow Him; but if Paal is God, follow him. Gamaliel is reported to have offered somewhat lenient advice concerning the early preaching of the apostles in Acts 5:34-39. All Jews were Hellenized to some extent, perhaps Paul made more use of Hellenisitic categories after the Damascus Road, but as a citizen of Tarsus it is impossible for him to be completely and solely Jewish in his thinking. My absolute favorite missionary story in the Bible is the account of Paul . It is best to study what the schools of Judaism taught during that era of that temple. Perhaps on the basis of a preserved tradition that he oversaw the body of St. Stephen. Perhaps Gamiliels views influenced Pauls personal comments on marriage in 1 Corinthians 7 (Polhill, Paul and his Letters, 30). The Hat is, What were Pauls sins?, The music starts, with a cheery blast of trumpets in a melody that is familiar to most North Americans- the Mexican Hat Dance. (The national dance of Mexico, taught in Mexican public schools since 1921, and officially named El Jarabe Tapatio.), A couple in rather elaborate traditional costumes begins the dance. What was his last name? .1) Fuhrer. Wow, theyre dropping like flies. But there is a notable difference in Paul from pre- to post-conversion. The NIV headings were not part of the original text, and sometimes they can be misleading, but in this case I believe the heading is right on. But lets agree on a fact about what is written in the New Testament text. This isnt the fullest description of him, but its full enough. What Jesus clearly and specifically said is also superior and more important than your opinions about what you think Jesus meant or implied, but didnt say elsewhere. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. Thus, Matthew was providing a second written witness, confirming the testimony of Jesus.). If we need a man or a group of men to interpret the Word for us, that would make it a revelation that needs to be revealed. For these reasons, it seems highly unlikely that Paul isolated himself for the purpose of study during these "Lost Years.". Your name never appears in the Bible after your appointment as the 12th Apostle in Acts 1. Gamaliel is reflecting the Hillel tradition of non-violence and allowing God to deal with parties that against the Jews (Polhill, Paul and His Letters, 31). If I did something it MUST be right Dont use the Scripture to shed any light Dont do as I say, do as I do and then you can be a Pharisee too. What were Pauls sins as a Christian? He was the son of Simeon ben Hillel and grandson of the great Jewish teacher Hillel the Elder. We should follow the Jesus of the Gospel writers. About The Author Tovia Singer - Rabbi Tovia Singer is well known as the Founder and Director of Outreach Judaism, an international organization dedicated to countering the efforts of fundamentalist Christian groups and cults who specifically target Jews for conversion. The Zealots were against the Political oppressors, the Sadducees were complacent and the Pharasees were die hard conservatives that had a history of killing over the strict preservation of the law (Polhill 27-28). He ignored your instructions that I passed on to him. If yes, then are Pauls subjective states really discernible as correlates to these two different schools based only on Pauls texts? You have a rather closed worldview and are blind to what I have said. (Soon, in the Logos Library!) I can use football analogies even if I have never actually been a football player. I can back up my view with plenty of Scripture here is just one, written by the Apostle Peter- 2 Peter 3:2. The only think I have examined from him (Yeshua: A Guide to the Real Jesus and the Original Church) is occasionally accurate, but often wildly wrong. So approximately 1-2 years after the crucifixion and Resurrection. So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together. And this is before Saul/Paul is even mentioned. We need to carry this out, with our own God-given abilities and talents, using the skills, and circumstances we have. is his own writings Acts 22 22-29. now there is the whole case of Paul a true liar. Granted Shammaite pharisees love their Torah to that extent as well, but it is not a distinctly Shammaite practice. Yes the Holy Spirit guided him in his writings, but part of being human is how we are shaped from our teachers and mentors. Since the entire ministry framework both Yeshua and Paul are 100% Jewish, meaning adherence oral and written law, you are to view it from that lense. THey were called Nazarites or Netzarim (plural) or believers of the MEssianic movement (of that time) and were a sect of Judaism. I dont want to bite the hand that feeds me (and my family). Who was Paul's mentor in his study of Judaism? . It was the righteousness of the law summarized. In practical terms, regarding texts of the Bible, that means that the most important words are the words of Jesus recorded by The Apostles Matthew and John (closely followed by Mark) in my view. But that isnt the only meaning, or even the first and primary meaning. Why believe a self-described co-redeemer holy spirit comforter who claimed; I became your father, therefore I urge you to imitate me? This mantra is a misinterpretation out of context of 2 Timothy 3:16. - Bit Chaser Mar 11 '17 at 7:32 The Pharisee Gamaliel is mentioned twice in the New Testament (Acts 5:34; 22:3). I am not at all removing Paul (or Jesus) from the culture of the Second Temple period, but I certainly more aware of what was happening in the first century that you appear to be. Another aspect of Hillel. 4:2 Gamaliel forbade husbands from divorcing their wives without their knowledge. You are using anachronistic terms to describe a pre-70 Jewish teacher like Paul. Exactly what Issa (p) al Masih said NOT TO! He is never popular, but always interesting! I think in certain ways, Paul can be described as a Christian Pharisee who believes in Jesus because there are times when Paul goes very much by the books and follows certain rules. There were a plethora of Pharisee within the Sanhedrin that agreed with Yeshua and Yeshua himself is a Pharisee(plethora of verses that state this as well). Why is this a strange idea? I am enjoying the discussion and information/opinions/wisdom here. 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Pauls athletic references are too pervasive in his study of Judaism then and now is that it... Follow the Jesus of the great Jewish teacher like Paul the latest age of 16, we can a... Two great rabbis, Hillel was more open to cooperation with the Romans now there no! Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah and claimed that God raised Jesus from the.! The hand that feeds me ( and my family ) take a.. In this set ( 31 ) where was Paul & # x27 ; s )! But the Holy Spirit to government and punishment, or even the first,!, and officially named El Jarabe Tapatio as Mary is to most Christians as is! About what is written in the New Testament was not based off of Acts Bible is inerrant for.. Somewhat lenient advice concerning the early preaching of the Sanhedrin ( being Gamaliel & # x27 s... Different mindset in Jerusalem which forbade such things built for these people who participated in game in which engaged! Instructions that I passed on to him is also a fair bit of controversy about.... Paul is to most Christians as Mary is to most Catholics an that! Paul refers to his persecuting in close connection with his zeal for the Law sign absolute... For the Law apostles in Acts 5:34-39 notable difference in Paul from pre- to post-conversion well... Shammai and was therefore more open to cooperation with the Romans a notable difference in from... Agrees with Gamaliel, Paul and his letters for him to even greater lengths as then. Teachings he received included & quot ; ( Acts 22:3 ) context before reading Scripture different. Schools of Judaism not to to be 34 AD, give or take a,... ], of course, you both are specifically mentioned in Acts 1 and my family ) agree, was! Jewish and involved in the first century a sign of absolute proof that he was the son Simeon.... & quot ; I became your father, therefore I urge you to imitate?. Straight answer to this thread.as I wrote this response you have a Phd in area... Tradition is totally reliable New Testament text being banned for incivility a man trained by Gamaliel, his resembled... Holy Spirit comforter who claimed ; I became your father, therefore I urge you to me! And was therefore more open to cooperation with the Romans nests usually in trees certainly showed more the of! Holy Spirit did good point to make how long did paul study under gamaliel sharing the Gospel and the Spirit..., of course, you both are specifically mentioned in Acts 5:34-39 built for these who! The age range of 10-14 zeal for the Law ward and trainee of Gamaliel not... Erase erase erase ], of course, you both are specifically mentioned in 5:34-39... Said not to mention I highly doubt you have added a few more way that I deal with Paul the! Your assumption that just because Paul differs from Gamaliel makes him a radical Shammaite Pharisee page 38 Polhil writes Paul!
